Creation or Evolution?

Some kind soul sent me the below article and I responded in reciprocation.

Enjoy!

Question:

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We are often asked whether we believe the Creation account in the first chapter of Genesis should be understood as a literal six-day creation. Some Christians believe that if a person doesn’t believe that God created everything in six literal days, then they are denying both God and the Bible.

But it is important to remember that some parts of the Bible are intended to be understood literally and some parts are intended to be understood figuratively. In fact, some 40 percent of the Bible consists of poetry and metaphors, and these are intended to be taken figuratively, not literally. And the figurative parts are every bit as true as the literal parts.

For example, God is not a literal hen, rock, tower, or shepherd, even though the Bible describes God in such terms.

We have to remember that the writer of Genesis 1 lived at a time when common oral (and eventually written) traditions included mythic creation epics that presented the stars, the planets, the sun, moon, land, sea and animals as gods. Some of these creation epics began with a pre-existent mound out of which the first god springs, who then in one way or another produces the other gods. Another variation has the sea as the first god. Such epics were the standard approach to explaining the original of the known universe.

Contrast that with the Creation story in Genesis 1. The Genesis account uses the standard style of creation epics of the ancient world. But it makes the radical declaration that the God of Israel, completely unlike all the gods of the nations, did not emerge from anything, nor was he ever part of the universe.

Quite the contrary, Genesis declares that this God created everything out of nothing simply by the power of his word. Each of the things thought of by the nations as being gods is systematically presented in Genesis as having been created by this God, and then being declared “good” by this God, demonstrating his utter power over them.

In other words, Genesis 1 is about the Who of Creation, not the how. Genesis 1 is making a profound theological statement to us about who God is as Creator in contrast to the gods of the nations. We should not try to interpret it as providing us some kind of literal scientific record of how and when God did it.

The biblical revelation tells us that the God who revealed himself to Israel and who has revealed himself to humanity in Jesus Christ is the Creator of all that exists. This means that nothing factual that science can say about the universe needs to be in conflict with the biblical revelation – as long as the scientific interpretation doesn’t conclude that God is not the Creator of all that exists.

Scientists, using whatever evidence is available, seek to better understand the wonders of the amazing universe God has brought into being. Since God is the creator of all that is, whatever science finds to be true about the universe or about life itself, is simply a discovery about some aspect of what God has done.

As Christians, we have no need to be afraid of or skeptical of what science discovers, because all truth is God’s truth, and all true science is God’s science.

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Answer:

Hi ....

To me it is futile to debate on the issue of Bible creation story vs the so called "scientific" discovery of evolution theory because all these are prehistorical events, the past, period!

What is critical now is the future which can be influenced by what we do or do not do in the present.

Present the Creation Story as part of the whole Gospel of salvation by and through Jesus Christ alone as the solution to an impending problem of Sin through the Fall.

If people, after hearing the Gospel, accept, believe and repent, Praise be unto God, if they reject, that is there God given right and if they choose to believe in "scientific evolution", let them find salvation in the scientific theory, that is their right and also their destiny.

Let us not be like some modern Pharisee who insist that man are not mammals because we are not animals.

Man are mammals because we share the common attributes of scientifically coined criteria, but man can fail to be humans if we behave like animals as seen lately how politics have become in Malaysia.

Regards,
...
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A Wonderful Speech is It?

I received an email from a long time friend and in it contained the former PM of Australia, John Howard's speech to the UN.

My friend claimed it to be wonderful; I beg to differ and would classify it as unhelpful.

The reason is one immigrant cannot ask another immigrant to leave; but to understand why people are as they are and so long as they seek no violence in there struggles, we should live side by side amidst diversity.

My reply to my friend is below the posting:

==========================================

IT'S A WONDERFUL SPEECH………
Hi ,
The views of Patriotic Australian Prime Minister....
THE UNITED NATION Needs A Leader Like This !

Prime Minister John Howard - Australia

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.


Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'


'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'


'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'


'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'


'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'


Maybe if we circulate this TO THE WHOLE WORLD- IT MAY GIVE the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths FOR THE PEACE & LOVE OF MANKIND

IN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE.
GREAT EXPECTATION MAY GOD BLESS ALL OF US.
Now go to this website to know more"Why Israel's offensive on gaza?"
www.jcpa.org

John Howard

========================================

Dear Bro. (zapped to protect confidentiality),

John Howard's right to free speech must be respected and I support his right, even though I may not entirely agree with what he said, hopefully he verbalizes what he thinks.

The fundamental issue is still Human's basic right to choice.

For people who wants to be under Sharia, let them vote with their hands and legs and for people who vote for Civil Law, let it be so.

But for John Howard, to demand people to get out when he himself like so many others to Australia are immigrants, is a little way above the top.

A viable democracy is one that embraces and the acid test is how the rights of the minorities are protected for the comfort consumption of the minorities alone, without discriminating the majority by even an iota.

Similarly, transport this back to our beloved home country, Malaysia.

What if one day, the majority demands Sharia and Hudud and tell us, the minority that if we don't like it, we can get out of the country?

Yes, any weapon of aggression can backfire, so, let us be more retrospect in everything we think, say and do, undo or don't do.

Shalom,
Alex Kee

Sustainability = Living Within the Renewable Cycle

We often use the term "Sustainable & Renewable" without much thought and thinking aloud lately, I wondered what it meant philosophically.

As we are all aware, nothing on Earth is new; everything that existed now had existed in its absolute content quantum, its form may have changed and its content remained conserved just as energy and matter are.

The Law of the Conversation of Matter and Energy states that Energy and Matter cannot be destroyed; they can only be transformed as succinctly expressed by Albert Einstein's E=mc2.

This being the case, we ought not to run out of resources, but the empirical evidence is that we do, and always too.

Take the case of drinking water.

The next time you take a drink, think for a while, it may have been someone's urine and after you have drank it, it may come back as clean recycled fresh water in someone else glass.

How? You may ask.

Well, thanks to the Hydrological Cycle (one of the many major cycles that recycle Earth's resources: the Nitrogen Cycle, the Carbon Cycle etc).

Scientist believe that the quantum of water on Earth has been fixed during the Jurassic Period and there are no new water; just fresh recycled water, compliments from the Sun.

Used water evaporated under the power of the Sun to form clouds that fall as precipitation: rain, snow, hail etc that fills up rivers and get treated to become potable water for us.

Conceptually, we ought not to run out of fossil fuel too, but the reality is because unlike water, the recycling gestation period of oil is not in a matter of weeks, months, years, decades or centuries but eons!

Therefore, when we run out of clean potable water, let us realize that this ought not be the case because the Recycling Cycle is within Renewability; it is our abuse and/or overuse that pushes it beyond its sustainability.

As Gandhi puts it, "The world has enough resources to satisfy our needs; never our greed".

So, use resources wisely and judiciously, always within its renewability cycle so as to remain sustainable, for our sake, our children' sake and our children' children' sake.

Mangkali or Punjabi: Misnomer or Malice Meant?

The Sikh Community has just celebrated their new year about a week ago and the newly appointed Chief Minister of Perak, Mohd. Nizar who ignorantly referred the Sikh as "Bengali" where it should have been "Punjabi" in a Sikh Temple celebration, came under fire, big time from certain quarters, Sikh and non Sikh alike, but was also defended by others, Sikh and non Sikh too.

While the fresh Chief Minister may have made a blunder by using the wrong description, does he deserve such condemnation when it is common knowledge that the Chinese Community in Malaysia had always and still do address the Sikhs as "Mangkali" which sounds like "Bengali".

To the Sikhs who originate from Punjab, I can understand why they would detest being called "Mangkali" which sounded like "Bengali", given that Punjab is in the West of India, closer to West Pakistan (now called merely Pakistan) and Bengal is in the East, closer to East Pakistan, now seceded and independent from Pakistan and has adopted the name "Bangladesh".

But the Chinese Community has always refer the conspicuous Sikh who wears a Sikh turban as "Mangkali" and poor Nizar couldn't really be faulted for using the wrong term, even granted as a Chief Minister (albeit newly minted) he ought to show less "man of the street's" ignorance.

My take on the phenomenon is the inherent phonic articulation inability of Chinese tongue in pronouncing certain sounds like "R" and "L", "V" and "B", "Z" and "J".

For example, it is not uncommon for the Chinaman to say, "Bely Good" instead of "Very Good", "Lulian" instead of "Durian". Therefore, Punjabi could be mistakenly pronounced as "Mangkali" because Sikhs address brothers as "Bai" or "Vai" and it follows that "Punjabi" morphs into "Baikali" and then to "Mangkali".

Well, this is only my hypothesis and is subject to further etymological scrutiny by any interested experts out there.

Karpal Singh, who, as a modern Singh is never seen in typical Singh garb turban except on a special day like the Sikh New Year was classic in his defense for the newly minted Chief Minister.

I like how Karpal puts it with style and compassion. Plagiarizing William Shakespeare's Romeo & Juliet (II, ii, 1-2), he said, "What's in a name? That which we call a rose? By any other name would smell as sweet." How true!

If my memory serves me right, I have never read in the Press and seen on mass media, a Chief Minister, especially a Muslim (and from a Muslim inspired political party like PAS) entered a place of worship except a mosque and to even officiate the opening of a religious ceremony like Vaisakhi or Baisakhi in a Sikh Temple, is truly a sign of goodwill and humility.

Alas, there are some within and without who took extreme offense and demanded for the Chief Minister's blood, if not head for a common mistake held by the masses.

Nizar has apologized for the mistake and to me, the whole accident ought to be just forgiven and forgotten, because malice was never intended, it was a genuine accident out of a habitual use of a term.

This incident is like one that was told to me when I was working as an Insurance Agent in the 1980s.

The scene was a classroom and the lesson was "cookery". The Cookery Class Teacher held up high a Rastali banana and asked the class, "Girls, do you know what banana this is?".

The class bimbo quickly got up, put up her hand and shouted, "Indian Banana, teacher".

The whole class broke into laughter, the teacher included.

The poor girl was puzzled. It definitely looks like a "Keh Leng Chio" or "Indian Banana" in Hokkien, so what is so funny?

The same goes for the "Indian Temple" instead of "Hindu Temple" and "Malay New Year" instead of "Hari Raya Idil Fitri".

Funny, me think, if some Sikh and non Sikh can be easily offended by such honest accidental mistakes, they ought to take offense when a non Sikh puts on a Sikh Turban in a Sikh Temple, but then, Mr. Lim Eng Guan, the newly minted Chief Minister of Penang, do look undoubtedly cute with it, and so does our Karpal Singh, Esq.

I wonder how they will look in Taliban styled turbans though, but then, as garb doesn't make a man or a woman, it does not matter.

A Rose will smell like a rose, no matter by what you call it and a Sikh will always be a Sikh even when Punjab is split into half Indian and half Pakistani and by what name you can him, Punjabi, Mangkali, Bai or even Bengali.

नमस्त
(Namasté)

Fishing in Troubled Waters

I received a phone call from a stranger purportedly based in China, trying to interest me into investing in fuel oil futures.

He claims that fuel oil prices in the USA is bound to rise given the higher and bigger demand for winter heating because of the anticipated colder winter, low stock levels and higher crude oil prices.

I protested to him that with people like him speculating in the fuel oil futures and with no viable alternatives in sight, fuel oil prices will have no other way but to go up, unless of course the US government releases it stockpile to drive down market prices.

Heating oil to keep alive in the winters in countries is a necessity. It is like water in desert climates. Withholding or profiteering in basic commodities to can mean life or death to people is the greatest crime anyone can commit.

If I make money at the expense of someone else suffering, is this humane?

What is the root objection to usury, precisely because it enslaves the poor to poverty when to the contrary, we ought to help the poor to feed, clothe and keep themselves warm when they are not able to.

If fuel oil prices become unaffordable to many in the cold countries, be prepared to see a rise in the number of deaths and all thanks to the hike in oil prices exacerbated by speculators in commodities.

We all know that fossil fuel is not sustainable but the harsh reality that in the short run there is no real alternatives to it but to gain at someone else losses is to me, adding another misery on suffering people.

Sin & the Sinner

I received an appeal from one Pastor Allen Tan urging Christians in Malaysia to "nib the problem of starting a gay church in Malaysia at its bud".

Apparently there is one Pastor Oyoung Wen Feng commissioned by strong American support is tasked to starting a gay church in Malaysia.

Pastor Allen Tan is urging Christians from various denominations to unite to stop it from happening, even to the extent of urging the government of Malaysia to intervene on the basis that homosexual activities subvert the government's efforts and millions of ringgits investment in stemming out the HIV-AIDS problem because, according to Rev Tan, AIDS-HIV is caused by homosexual acts.

Pastor Tan seems to have taken it upon himself with crusading fervor to eradicate the budding of any gay church in Malaysia to the extent of using any ways and means to achieve his end believing he had a mandate from God to eradicate the ungodly from the face of the earth, phew, with fervor reminiscing those of the infamous Taliban!

While I am in agreement with the Bible that homosexual acts like other sexual sins e.g. bestiality, fornication and adultery is forbidden to all, Christians or non-Christians alike, we ought to be realistic and acknowledge the fact that as redeemed sinners, we are still on the way towards holiness and are still continuing to struggle with sin, whether we confess it to our other fellow brethren or not.

Do we grant church fellowship to people only if they are "good enough" to be associated with us, or do we accept people in good faith and based on face value that they have, like us, have taken a step of faith in following Jesus Christ though confession, repentance, desiring and working diligently on becoming a disciple of Christ even though we by faith are already Christ's disciples?

What if one day, someone we know as a brother or sister, with whom we have fellowship approach us with a confession of a sexual sin that he or she is struggling with and seeking our help to overcome it?

Do we push him/her away like lepers or do we weep with them and extend that hand of support to carry our brother through because he is our brother that we ought not to abandon in his hour of need?

There would not have been a place for any gay church had the conventional churches provide a place in their congregation to rehabilitate people who repents and are working towards overcoming their specific areas of weaknesses in their lives.

People like Oyoung may have the agenda to establish some kind of a church that runs contrary to the basic teachings and values of the Bible, maybe like a Jewish sect that advocates the eating of pork, but to then pressure a secular government to intervene in what is precisely a religious matter is inviting a "kick-me" ridicule.

What ought to be our response then?

The criminal laws of Malaysia, inherited from the British, which relied upon the values of the Church of England provides for the specific punishment of homosexual acts (acts of carnal knowledge).

This is the same law that Dr. Mahathir, the retired Prime Minister of Malaysia used to get the courts to convict and fire his deputy, Anwar Ibrahim.

But this is a matter of the law and their are sufficient provisions in the Penal Code to punish people who practices homosexual acts in Malaysia, be it committed privately or publicly.

Even if Oyoung or some others manage to get his gay church established, ought we be ashamed because he claim it to be a Christian Church?

Labels ought not trouble us, decent people know what decency is and rubbish smells like and the substance of garbage no matter how it is masked or disguised.

People will be able to discern the truth from falsehood by reasoning.

If truth cannot be established by reasoning; then truth it ought not be.

We cannot forbid religious freedom (no matter how contrary it is to our own liking) in Malaysia because it is enshrined in our secular Constitution that protects all, us included.

We can only attempt to enlighten people on the love of God that desires us to lead happy, healthy and fulfilling lives and for that, He guides us through His wisdom, precepts upon precepts, a little here, a little there.

Let us build our communities to be strong and true to our Lord.

An abundant life in Christ Jesus experienced needs no other distraction, even of the strange kind like same sex acts.

Below is my reply to a concerned brother:

Dear Bro. Lim,
Thank you for forwarding the two emails regarding the same issue.

My first reaction is "Wow"! Seems like the "vernacular" Chinese newspapers are more current than the mainstream English and Bahasa Malaysia newspapers in Malaysia in covering such "hot issues" like "gay churches" that will help sell their newspapers and benefit their shareholders and employees!

I think the attempt to stop or ban people from discussing or establishing churches, temples or any other institutions of religious or moral persuasion other than ours is utmost condescending at best and bigotry at worst.

I am not acquainted with one Rev. Allen Tan, but I could literally smell that blood thirsty sword of judgment in his hands to mete out "God's justice" like the famous Justice Pow of Kaifeng of old and ala maybe the Taliban of modern day Afghanistan trapped in their 7thCentury archaic time frozen mindset.

Malaysia's Constitution is secular and thank God it is.

This same Constitution that guarantees religious freedom for all is like a double edged sword that cuts both ways, it is impartial and a respecter of no persons, this is the essence of the Rule of Law, a tenet of modern civilization so sacred that without which the foundation of justice cannot stand.

If we start to poke the government to ban what we think is "unchristian", we are writing a blank cheque of precedence for our own persecution.

Ponder for a moment, do we forbid churches that preaches a different gospel other than ours, even one that denies the deity of Christ?

Churches that teach us to abstain from eating and drinking certain kinds of food and drinks because the Bible (Old Testament) records for the Jews that those are forbidden but the New Testament clearly records for us in the Council of Jerusalem that we Gentiles need no further yoke for what Jesus Christ has emancipated us from?

Churches that still believe in the Apostolic Succession and the continuous practice of the speaking in tongues when it ought to have ceased as a feature of God's intended dispensation for such a phenomenon tagged with an expiry date?

I could go on and on, but I think we ought to have got the point by now.

Leave these people alone but educate our own people on the ways of the Lord.

If we know that homosexual acts is wrong before the sight of God just like any other sexual sins like adultery, fornication and masturbation (?), talk and walk our personal life to match our talk.

By the way, HIV and AIDS is caused by a virus spread by the transfer of body fluids, not necessary exclusive to homosexual acts. It can be transmitted by blood transfusion, sharing of needles, toothbrushes, razor blades and even heterosexual sex.

Recent medical discoveries seem to indicate that HIV transmission amongst circumcised males is less vis-a-vis uncircumcised, so does it mean that we all ought to be circumcised to help slow down the spread of HIV-AIDS and be wanton with our sexual appetite?

No! ABC is still the message: Abstain, Be Faithful to your Spouse and if you cannot be either, wear a Condom!

The beauty of the Christian Church is in its diversity and the tolerance within the ecclesia that had allowed the diversity to blossom.

My take of the situation is simple.

If we are Christ's disciples first and church members second, it does not matter which church I go to or if I go to any church at all.

Church as an organization is supposed to serve society, touch lives and points people to Jesus Christ to also be their Lord and Savior through their own free will.

But alas, look around us and we see the ubiquitous self serving ends of the people with power running the churches and the unbelievable dirt and abuses of pastors and yes man and yes woman leaders lead by their noses.

My own life is a tragic story of church abuse.

I was ex-communicated by a Charismatic Church because I asked:

1. For the church accounts to b externally audited and also published.

2. For open membership to be practiced as stipulated in the church's constitution and

3. For the election of the pastors and office bearers, all these stipulated in the church's constitution but never practiced and forever denied to the "church members".

The biggest joke to silent me was the senior pastor, with help from his cronies, hastily set up a kangaroo court, made up of an equally hastily set up "Elders Board" and "Discipline Committee Board" to hear and judge me in absentia and finally excommunicated me and my family, even though we were not members in the first place!

Not members even after attending the church as pioneers and for more than 20 years.

Not members not because we did not want to, but because the senior pastor deceived us into believing that there is no need for "paper membership", so long as you attend the church, you automatically are members.

How romantic and naive we all were!

How cunningly deceptive this "man of god" is!

I can go on and on about the shameful cover-up, way up the church hierarchy, even way up to Springsfield, Missouri, USA, but I think this should suffice.

Those who knows the truth, will be set free by the truth, although it first has to hurt.

My two sen advise on the matter: the gays and lesbians may not be people we like to associate with, but they are people who Christ died for too.

If we are not prepared to minister to them because we would not touch the uncleaned, let those who have a heart to reach out to these special people do so without our inhibitions.

If Jesus Christ were to be here today, how would he had treat the gays and the lesbians caught in the act and brought by the modern day Pharisees for His judgment?

Would He command them to be condemned with decapitation or would he challenge us (you and me, the onlookers): Let those without sin cast the first stone?

Would you cast the first stone when the He Who knew no sin simply says, "Go and sin no more".

Grace, Amazing Grace that saved a wretch like me, freely we receive, let us also freely give.

Shalom,
Alex Kee

On 8/6/07, SER SHING LIM < lifatt@gmail.com> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bene Toon < benetoon@gmail.com>
Date: Aug 6, 2007 5:44 PM
Subject: Fwd: Gay church issue
To: chian.chomfon@taylors.edu.my, chom_elle@hotmail.com, fuat.sadewa@yahoo.co.id, joseph_thana2001@yahoo.com, kennyltc@yahoo.com, kingjamesmy@yahoo.com , mark_kwan@hotmail.com, mingfei_tan@yahoo.com, nancy@skklog.com.my, pl-sanko@ntti.net.sg, poonpc@yahoo.com, set_success@yahoo.com, yinghui0925@hotmail.com, zephaniahpee@calvary.com.my, zephptk@yahoo.com, Aaron & Vivian ONG < arong@streamyx.com>, Afred Ng < arcpro@tm.net.my>, amos lee <amos_ltc@yahoo.com>, Amy Ding < amyding@a-freight.com>, "Andri DO (Rica Jkt)" < andrido-mkt@ricakusuma.co.id>, andy chua < jb_andychua@yahoo.com.sg>, annabelle chian < annabelle0205@hotmail.com>, Anthony Ong <ong188@gmail.com>, Ban Huat < limbanhuat@yahoo.com>, BK < boonkeat21@yahoo.com>, Bro Dav <jayadev@mmhe.com.my>, Bro Ken < ah_naige@yahoo.com>, Bro Soong Kok Tiong < soongkt@yahoo.com>, Bro Tony <ar9311@hotmail.com>, Bruce & cathie < cathie1@tm.net.my>, Cha Yong < uchayong@tm.net.my>, Chen Long <tansl@miracle.com.my>, Chloe Teo < chloeteo112@yahoo.com>, CqLeong < brightimber@gmail.com>, Daniel Sin <danielsinhf@gmail.com>, Danny Eng < dannyengseetian@yahoo.com.tw>, davidson lawrence < kingjamesmy@gmail.com>, desmiond leong < desmond@flexitrans.com.my>, Doulos Tan <iamdoulos@gmail.com >, Eileen Chee <eileen.chee@csflogistics.com>, en cheng < tiffanym@streamyx.com>, forrestgump forrestgump < ahnaige@hotmail.com>, heo ty < centia40@yahoo.com>, irene Ang <cccjohor@tm.net.my>, Jimmy Chan < jabez.marketing@gmail.com>, joseph dowd < joseph.dowd@gmail.com>, Joshua Lim <arthome@pd.jaring.my >, Joshua Lim <thteokk@streamyx.com>, Kelvin Ng < kelngtop1@gmail.com>, LARRY < larrylms@pd.jaring.my>, Lau Kui Min Usana <dssmin@yahoo.com.sg>, Mark Kwan < sojournm@gmail.com>, matthew soon < wecare777@yahoo.com.sg>, nelson peter <nelson.shalom@gmail.com>, nelson peter < shalomnps@yahoo.com>, Ninan < cninan@gmail.com>, Paul Rajan <apexrecycle@yahoo.com.my>, "Ps. Shi Shin" < kennethchwa@yahoo.com.sg>, " Ps.Daniel Chow" <ccctampoi@yahoo.com>, "Ps. Ernie" < ernie_4jc@hotmail.com>, "Ps. PeiSan" < cccsuria@time.net.my>, "ps.Thomas fang" <ysfang@tm.net.my>, "Rev. Allen TAN" < yhjohn@streamyx.com>, Ricky Lim < ksljulie@hotmail.com>, Rudi Senjaya < senjaya@telkom.net>, Rui Fu <jleedavid@yahoo.com>, samuel Tan < samuel17@tm.net.my>, sathis nair < superb_sn2003@yahoo.com>, simon ho <hermerz@streamyx.com >, sis malini <mr9311@hotmail.com>, SSLim < lifatt@gmail.com>, Tan Boon Joo <bjtan_jb5@yahoo.com.sg >, Tan Guan <tg@ecoprint.com.my>, Timothy Siow < ica2000@tm.net.my>, victor eng < xxlgreenpower@gmail.com>, vincentia <yyan63@yahoo.com>, Vivian Ai fen < aifen_tng@yahoo.com.sg>, Wee Yong Fook < livingstone@pd.jaring.my>, wenchi <kohboonchee@gmail.com>, wenshiong < mhyap@dailyfresh.com.my>, wong et yong < etyong2002@yahoo.com.sg>, yap choon ping <yapfrance@yahoo.com>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Allen Tan <yhjohn@streamyx.com>
Date: Aug 6, 2007 2:50 PM
Subject: Gay church issue
To: NECF <editor@necf.org.my>, Wong Kim Kong < necf@po.jaring.my>
Cc: Ding Mee Heyong < gracedmh@hotmail.com>, Nancy Lai <nancy_seowkian@hotmail.com>, "Amy Lee (Antioch)" < amamy@tm.net.my>, Andrew Wong < holisticteam@yahoo.com>, Christopher Mun < chrismun@pd.jaring.my>, Edward Chui < rev.edward.chui@gmail.com>, elizabeth <elizabeth@hktt.com>, Lum Chee Wah < cheewah_l@bursamalaysia.com>, Joshua Lee < fct@po.jaring.my>, Susan Tang < admin@station-of-life.org>, Tryphena Law <trylaw@hotmail.com >, Tracy Ng <tracynkc8@yahoo.com>, Bene Chian < benetoon@gmail.com>

Aug 6 2007

Dear Rev Wong Kim Kong,

Thank you for replying me through Sister Sandy via a sms. Since you are not taking actions, I will work with some others to pursue the matter. Many churches and ministers are looking up to NECF for help. They still think the best party is NECF. What for NECF organizes praying and fasting for 40 days for the nation, and now when this crucial issue propped up which required your prompt action, you are not willing to do anything? I am sure that such gay-agenda being propped up was the result of our Christians' prayers. You know God chose to expose them right in the period of your 40-day fast so that you can take a prompt action! As such, Pastors are disappointed with your reply.

Though the gays in the talk do not practice the act, don't you see that this is the budding time? And soon it will come out with the fruits. If we could foresee that they are bad fruits, should not we do something now? Which way is easier, to nip the buds now, or to tend to sick people who consumed the fruits later?

Yes, it is good to see the Muslims taking action against homosexuality. But I feel that we Christians should be the first person to be aware of the deadly sting of it. We should be the first to take initiative to work with government. I am sure the government is very pleased with us to alert them of the vice being taking place in the country. The government is spending billions of Ringgits in treating the HIV and sex-related diseases! They are definitely not willing to see youths involved in all these perversions. I hope that you are not upset with me over my opinion. I only see that upholding the principles of the Bible is important when the society needs us.

Thank you. God bless you.

P.S. Aug 7 at noon, some pastors would meet up and see what to do next.

Rev. Allen Tan

Aug 5 2007

Dear Pastors, Bro & Sis,

Updates on Gay Church in Malaysia

Shalom!

Thank you for your concern about the gay church. Prior to his two meetings on Aug 11 & 12 at Grand Olympic Hotel (near Merdeka Stadium KL), Oyoung Wen Feng is having a road-show for 5 days from Aug 5 to 9 at Penang, Johor Baru, KL & Singapore. Again Sin Chew Jit Poh made the publicity on Aug 5. This shows that Oyoung is aggressive in pushing through the Gay-agenda in Malaysia.

If we do not stop him now, pretty soon Malaysia will have many gay churches. A pastor told me that Rev. Troy Perry has planted 200 gay churches in America. Is it true? Could anyone give us the answer especially those who are in America? Their church is Metropolitan Community Church – New York. By the way, Troy is not the senior pastor, but the founder of MCCNY. The senior pastor is Rev Bumgardner. Please check Oyoung's website about his road-shows:

http://www.o-young.com/html/activity.htm

Very soon, our friends and relatives would be invited to attend the weddings of their members. Alamak, their spouse is of the same sex! Very soon, all our true churches will have real struggles with youth ministry. We pray that youth pastors would work harder because we are fighting for souls with gay churches.

Some of you asked me about two things: 1. Who Joseph was. 2. Getting NECF to help. Here are the answers:

1. I called Joseph and he is a Christian. When asked which church he attends, he was evasive. This shows that he has no confidence to face the public about his church membership. I exchanged sms with him asking him to repent. But he was upset with me, and he said that we Christians have no guts to do something to the unjust in our country, and instead we all prevent sinners to build relationship with God. It is obvious that he was misled by Oyoung.

When Christians spoke against homosexuality, Oyoung will accuse the church for persecuting them. The church welcomes all gays and lesbians, but we don't condone their actions. These people do not face the reality to have their lifestyle changed. Instead they set up gay churches because they have the wrong ideas that churches as whole persecuted them.

2. I sent a letter to NECF, Rev Wong KK, he replied through sms: 'Rev Allen Tan, this is Sandy from NECF, Rev Wong KK has read and understood your letter. His response is that NECF will help churches to educate their members but is unable to push the govt to ban the talk. The reason is that NECF's stand to the govt is in support of religious liberty. Asking for a ban based on our own beliefs goes against this and may have other repercussions. However, the homosexual act is a criminal offence in Malaysia so you may want to report the matter to the police. (Only that no actual act is committed during the talk, so it may not work.) Rev Wong hopes that you understand the situation and thank you for your concern for the Body of Christ. Thank you.'

I want to thank those who responded to me through calls and emails expressing their supports. And at the same time they are forwarding my mail to some Christian groups which practiced justice. Some gave me some suggestions. I hope we will come out with some solutions. Stopping gay-ministry is a long-term wrestling with Oyoung and his group. Though we may not be on-time to stop his two meetings now, we hope that his work would not be established in Malaysia.

Thank you and God bless you.

Rev. Allen Tan

Affirmative Action, Sustainable?

The STAR on 03Aug2007, reported UMNO Youth deputy chief Khairy Jamaludin accusing Anwar Ibrahim, "A traitor to the Malay cause":

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Anwar a traitor to Malay cause, says Khairy

KUALA KANGSAR: Umno Youth has labelled Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim – who was once head of the movement – a traitor to the Malay cause.

In making the declaration, Umno Youth deputy chief Khairy Jamaludin said: “The (coming) general elections is not about politics but the future of the Malays.”

“Anwar is a puppet of the United States and the Jews, thus he must be hounded until there is no more place for him to run to,” he told a state Umno Youth gathering on Wednesday night.

Among the 5,000 people present were the wing’s former chief Datuk Ahmad Zahid Hamidi, who is also Deputy Information Minister, and Mentri Besar Datuk Seri Mohd Tajol Rosli Ghazali.

Khairy said the movement was angered by Anwar’s persistence in wanting to do away with the New Economic Policy, a cause close to the hearts of the Malays.

“He wanted to abolish it simply because he wanted to win the support of the non-Malays,” he said.

=snipped=

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While we all know how dirty real politics can be and let it be known on the onset that I side nobody politically, my business is in sustainable development, I am deeply perturbed by the intellectual caliber of a purported Oxford U graduate.

The context of the NEP (New Economic Policy) was a time sensitive affirmative action program to eradicate (Malay) poverty and restructure (Malaysian) society, an aftermath of the racial riots of 1969, and not a subject of the social contract negotiated at the promulgation of the Malayan-Malaysian Constitution at the founding of independent Malaya in1957.

The NEP which sets out to help the poor as classified by race (exclusively the Malays) was supposed to be for a limited period of 20 years i.e. 1970 to 1990. It was never intended to be for eternity, but it now looks like the people who benefits directly from this convenient conduit of financial wealth are bent on perpetuating it.

When Anwar Ibrahim insisted NEP to be abolished, it presumable caused such a stir, at least on one UMNO member Khairy Jamaludin, the son-in-law of PM Ahmad Badawi.

Well, it did not moved me a bit.

I am more interested in what Anwar Ibrahim propose the NEP be replaced with.

Affirmative action has its place in every nation and at anytime, because abject poverty is a respecter of no color but of class and the station of life.

Technically, anyone is a candidate for abject poverty, so affirmative action ought not be bias towards race but class: if you are poor enough and qualify to receive aid, you ought to be helped, not because you are poor AND belong to a certain color, but because you are poor, period.

By insisting the NEP be abolished (and hopefully be replaced with a EOEP: Equal Opportunity Economic Policy?), Anwar Ibrahim, in my humble opinion is not fishing for non-Malay votes.

He instead is being true and honest, walking his talk as an authentic Malay Warrior: Keeping his word: "Kata Mesti Di Kota".

Lest we forget, UMNO, through PM Tun Razak had promised that the NEP is for a fixed time period of 20 years and ought to have lapsed by 1990.

Alas, Tun Razak has passed away long ago, otherwise it will be interesting to know what he thinks about extending the NEP forever, when it has matured.

By renegading on its words, UMNO not only dishonors the honesty of the Bangsa, it also implicates the integrity of what the Ugama preaches versus what is practiced by its Ummah and therefore the Negara as the other citizens watches the leaders of that Bangsa in the way they walk their talk.

It is already difficult under normal circumstances for one to do the right thing, and to do the right thing even when it hurts, that is the mark of a Hero, peers of great leaders like Mahatma Gandhi and Abraham Lincoln.

Anwar Ibrahim is taking a big gamble by insisting on abolishing the NEP, because he will certainly lose the affection of most bumiputras without even the slightest assured support from the non bumiputras.

Afterall, the non-bumiputras in Malaysia have got so used to relying only on themselves and thanks to self-reliance, they need no clutches to stand or walk.

Anwar Ibrahim is a Visionary.

He knows, the very aid that is supposed to help can turn out to be that very bait that entraps.

Imagine for a moment, if your one year old child could only babble, crawl and need to be fed and cleaned, well, that is normal.

But this very child of yours, who is not an invalid still expects you to feed and clean him like a one year old child when he is already 37 years old, is that still cute especially when he still crawls and not walk? When is he going to grow up and be independent?

Affirmative Action, to be sustainable in the long run, needs justification and justification on helping the poor regardless of color, religion or creed.

Anwar Ibrahim knows what it is like to have dignity (maruah).

Even if today Anwar Ibrahim is a pauper, poor in money; he is rich in dignity.

Anwar Ibrahim, you have done your ancestors proud and I hope many of us will emulate you.

I salute you!